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I was going to buy vocaloid but....
Jun 2 2004
07:19
bob
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Hi there.

Well, I was extremely interested in vocaloid and it seems to be an innovative product. I was very excited by it. However, I have to say that the samples I’ve listened to here and in other places have really put me off. I really can’t understand why anyone would spend ages, working out phenomes/phrasing etc. to produce an end result that is, quite frankly, poor and in many cases, laughable. Even the official demos are dodgy.

Now that sounds mean but perhaps vocaloid ‘devotees’ are too in love with the mechanics of the product and should perhaps stand back and listen to the results produced with a neutral and critical ear.

The human voice is such a great sounding thing, why not just get a real person in there? Surely it’s easier and the results are much better.

I sincerely hope that this product develops into something usable, I really do as it could help me out enormously. However, I rather suspect Vocaloid is going to sink without trace because serious musicians are never going to take it seriously unless it really does the biz.

Jun 2 2004
07:47
bobyordan
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I have great hopes, that Vocaloid will get a swing up via the next faster workflow release from Yamaha/Zero-G and with the automatic tweaking with PM algoritms from Jasmine/NTOnyx YV enhancer software. I hope this will save a lot of tweaking hours and make the whole concept easier to get fast and better results. Manual tweaking should just be made to enhance in a final stage.

It will probably not sound like the real thing in many years to come, but acceptable for demo making. It could also spice up music with a new form
of expression.

Look at it as a very exiting new instrument and technology rather than an instant vocal substitution.

Cheers
Bob
:roll:

ps
you can check out my short Lola song at
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/bobyo … smusic.htm
ds

Jun 2 2004
08:56
andromeda
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Bob (not Yordan)
I doubt you will return to this forum to read the replies but if ever you do…
Your reservations about the usefulness of the product have been echoed on here over and over again since the start, and are here to be read. I accept that it would probably take you ages to trawl through the numerous threads so you can be forgiven for thinking that we are not critical.
You ask why bother, why not get a real voice in? I couldn’t agree more. “It’s easier” you say – I couldn’t disagree more. That depends on your situation and the resources you have at your disposal. OK if you have a friendly singer with a range of two octaves and the ability to sing perfectly in tune, always, and at speeds faster than light.
You shouldn’t believe the Yamaha/Zero-G publicity machine. The product has been hyped beyond all recognition, and I agree (partly) that “serious musicians” (not 100% certain who these are, though) would not want to spend all the time and effort getting the phonemes and expression right. That is the problem at the moment. The product seems to suit the hobbyist. It is interesting to learn the technology, to learn about phonemes etc etc. And clearly, there are many who ARE prepared to do this.
I bought Lola because I believed the hype. I was/am disappointed at the poor sound you get with raw files. I find the amount of work needed to tweak the voice to get it sounding anywhere near right, is prohibitive. I think it will be a long time before the product is useable in “serious” studios wanting a good lead vocal. I think (for the moment at least) it will have a niche market and get used in certain areas where the rather artificial sound of the voice is actually an advantage. I think the way forward at the moment is not to try to get Vocaloid to sing what it can’t, but to create music which utilises what Vocaloid CAN.
Yes I think your comments on the demos on here are mean, but more importantly, demonstrate the fact that
a) you have not read all the critical posts on here
b) you have been reading the hype from Yamaha/Zero-G

You say that Vocaloid could help you if it “did the biz”. So then, what exactly do you do? What were you looking for? May we have a demo of your music to listen to?
Cheers
Chris

Jun 2 2004
10:30
khc
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Sir, a computer’s singing is like a dog’s walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all. – Paraphrase of Samuel Johnson

My motive to play with these tools is curiosity. They are the first generation of commercially available products. They are fascinating!

Sure it’s time consuming, but there are far worse ways to waste time (e.g. watching television).

Jun 2 2004
11:20
robotarchie
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Yes, Samuel Johnson upgraded his computer to the latest steam model, but it still sang like shit. He had the earliest coal television, but that was stupid because there was nothing to watch … <img class=” />

Jun 2 2004
12:30
gray
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Not to mention the microwave oven which required 2 logs and a cup of kerosene.

Jun 2 2004
12:55
robotarchie
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To paraphrase Mark Twain (probably) : “You could have knocked me over with a stocking full of wet diahorreah when I read this” <img class=” />

Jun 3 2004
07:04
pow_backslash
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This guy sounds like a child trying to sound grown-up. Who else but a immature child would jaw that crap about serious muscians blah, blah…

Jun 3 2004
08:49
robotarchie
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Easy, big guy, easy! Gotta cut a wee bit of slack here for idealism, which we all have in our expectations one way or another regardless of age. I agree that ALL the demos – commercial or user generated – to date have a certain artificiality to them that non-vocaloid users usually spot straight off (don’t we all). Unfortunately, I’ve learnt that this can sometimes be to the detriment of an otherwise good tune/demo. Maybe I’m being a bit poe-faced, but I was really pissed off a few weeks ago when a certain inexperienced-but-good female singer I wanted to use on a song (which she’d heard and liked as an instrumental) then came to me and heard a rough vocaloid guide demo of the melody/lyric lines. After a look of total confusion, she laughed very disdainfully like I’d tried to insult her or something, turned her cute nose up at doing the song at all and left abruptly. It was a surprising reaction. She won’t even return my calls now. OK, maybe the song wasn’t all that, but I’ll be more careful about playing a “rough sketch” vocaloid track to a prospective “wannabe singer” in future as it seems it can actually work against your goals as a “wannabe songwriter”. It’s a thought. Anyway, onwards and upwards, as they say.

Jun 3 2004
16:24
pow_backslash
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I didn’t disagree with what this guy said. Just his “tone”. When you get to be as ancient as I am you start to listen to context more than content. I also had the feeling that he was more familiar with Vocaoid than he was letting on. H20?????

Jun 3 2004
17:06
robotarchie
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8O Curiouser and curiouser ….. whatever can it all mean? (aside: you grumpy old git!) BTW – Pow, I forgot to tell ya, man – your pre-vocaloid version of “Pistol Packin’ Mama” was a BIG hit with some teenage friends who were visiting recently from NZ. One of them actually embroidered the title on the back of her jacket in big letters! I think I can get a picture of that to you (aside: fer foldin’ money now he’s a bigshot fancypants Star ‘an all). A recent email says that playing the track caused an uproar at one of their “parties”! They were all asking “who the hell looney did that? What’s all that about a monster truck and Gerry Springer”? Good one, mate! More fun than stealing cars (probably). <img class=” />

Jun 3 2004
22:14
pow_backslash
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Beyond a doubt more fun than stealing cars! And without the extended hangover. Do send me a picture of the jacket. (aside: what’s with this old git shit? The respectful and more accurate expression is old fart! And some of them are like out of the stone age…the farts I mean. :roll:

BTW This wasn’t Pow’s first shot at fame. Back in something like 1979 I did a thing with an Apple II (before there were PCs), a card that was called something like “VoiceBox”, a Fostex 8 Track and eight Pro-One synths that I had nailed to my wall. It was the Doors “The End” and I had to do it by recording one word at a time on adjacent tracks. It was a tiresome task and the reward was when a Santa Barbara radio station played it throughout the day and night on New Years Eve, 1979. The end of ’79 you know.

Jun 4 2004
06:39
bobyordan
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[quote="RobotArchie":26p0oppm]Maybe I’m being a bit poe-faced, but I was really pissed off a few weeks ago when a certain inexperienced-but-good female singer I wanted to use on a song (which she’d heard and liked as an instrumental) then came to me and heard a rough vocaloid guide demo of the melody/lyric lines. After a look of total confusion, she laughed very disdainfully like I’d tried to insult her or something, turned her cute nose up at doing the song at all and left abruptly. It was a surprising reaction. She won’t even return my calls now. OK, maybe the song wasn’t all that, but I’ll be more careful about playing a “rough sketch” vocaloid track to a prospective “wannabe singer” in future as it seems it can actually work against your goals as a “wannabe songwriter”. It’s a thought. Anyway, onwards and upwards, as they say.[/quote:26p0oppm]

Wow! Awesome story. Should have been interesting to know what went on inside her mind? :)

Did you explain to her that it was not you, yourself singing? :D

Jun 4 2004
19:06
bob
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[quote="andromeda":3ssxggbh]Bob (not Yordan)

I doubt you will return to this forum to read the replies but if ever you do…

[/quote:3ssxggbh]

Hi Andromeda. Why on earth would you doubt that I’d return? And why do people have to get so nasty just because I’m expressing a contrary opinion? I didn’t express my views nastily did I? When I said laughable, that wasn’t meant to be a personal criticism of those who did the demo tracks, but more the sound produced by the software. No offence intended and apologies if it was misconstrued. I think alot of work and craftmanship went into some of the demos i’ve heard and i can appreciate that, but i don’t think the results are very good. I think the reults are poor. However, as I said, I really hope this works eventually. Potentially it could be awesome but the software devlopers have a monumental task IMHO.

Cheers.

Pow_backlash: Sorry, I’m not gonna respond to someone with such an immature and puerile attitude.

Jun 4 2004
23:26
gray
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I don’t think Pow’s response was immature at all. You used the term “real musicians” as if the people here aren’t musicians. I made a living playing music for a lot of years and could still do so if I desired. You need to get vocaloid and see how well you can do with it Mr. “real musician”. I think a lot of the songs here are pretty darn good and don’t see a person without musical talent being able to get close to those sounds using vocaloid. There are a lot of problems with vocaloid for sure, but it’s currently the best thing we have. I don’t give up easily, and if you listen to the difference of my first post and my last, you will hear improvements throughout. For one thing, timing vocals is totally different than timing instruments and not the same as singing yourself where the timing is fairly automatic. If everyone gave uo because of imperfections, nothing new would ever be implemented. You think Edison had a long life lightbulb on his first attempt??

Jun 5 2004
07:03
pow_backslash
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Pow: You’re immature

Bob: No you’re immature

Pow: No you’re immature

Bob: No you’re immature

Pow: No you’re immature

Bob: No you’re immature

Pow: I give…I’m immature

Jun 5 2004
08:46
bob
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[quote="gray":3k11kiq9]You need to get vocaloid and see how well you can do with it Mr. “real musician”. [/quote:3k11kiq9]

Hello Gray

* I reread my post and I never mentioned ‘real musicians’.

* I never said anyone here was NOT a ‘serious musician’. I’m sure you’re all very talented.

* I never indicated in any way that I was a ‘serious musician’ or a platinum-selling musical genius. I am not. I am a mediocre amateur.

* Why on earth would I want to get Vocaloid to see how I do with it? Suppose I do great, it will still sound crap. If Yamaha and Zero-G can’t knock up a decent demo then what chance have I?

Let me expand on the term ‘serious musician’ as this seems to have caused a bit of a stir. I cannot work out why anyone would get so prickly about this. ‘Serious musicians’ I would have thought (hey, maybe I’m wrong) are musicians that do it for a living as opposed to hobbysists that take their music seriously. But, yeah, it’s a bit of a vague term so let’s replace that term with ‘professional musicians’ then.

I think I said that ‘serious musicians’ (professional musicians) wouldn’t take Vocaloid seriously. So, please correct me and let me know of a film composer, media composer, pop star etc., that’s using it out in the marketplace. Or should I say, point me in the direction of a commercial release, tv ad, film music, radio jingle, theme tune, etc., where Vocaloid fatures significantly (or at all).

You’ll now tell me that it’s early days yet with the software. Which is precisely the point I was making in the original post.

I really can’t understand why you’re all so defensive. Do you really think the results sound good then?

Surely we all agree mostly:

* Vocaloid is an exciting an innovative product

* It’s early days and the software needs improving

* The results could be better

* [i:3k11kiq9]Possibly[/i:3k11kiq9] the software will improve in future updates

Cheers, Bob.

p.s. pow_backlash: No, you’re immature

Jun 5 2004
09:01
vocaleaner
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8) yo!…
Cool it Bob!…..You are out of order. Don’t knock it till you tried it.
Support is needed here not unjustified critisism.

Thanks

Robert. 8)

Jun 5 2004
13:20
robotarchie
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8O Wow! Our first FLAME WAR on this so-called vocaloid forum! Go bitches, go! I’d love to see what happens on the so-called comments page if so-called Bob ups a so-called demo to our so-called forum ….. <img class=” /> That’s a double double so-called dare you to so-called Bob :D <img class=” /> I think I feel one of my so-called turns coming on…… :D

Jun 7 2004
00:03
quetzalcoatl
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What we need is some kids with fresh imagination to show us some avant-garde uses that Vocaloid could be put to. We all know it isn’t going to replace singers yet, it just isn’t developed enough. Those people trying to emulate real singing with Vocaloid are just bored (probably retired) hobbyists ‘playing around’. Nobody who actually works in the music industry can find a use for Vocaloid. This is why I suspect that Vocaloid will make its first appearances in new underground Trance and off-the-wall TV.

The bigger problem for Vocaloid is that kids can’t get their hands on a demo of Vocaloid. And even when they do, they can’t get past some pretty stupid stuff in the small print to make a record with it. All this adds up to the creators of Vocaloid not being too bloody serious about making Vocaloid a hit!

Give Vocaloid a chance :evil:

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