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Phenomes
Feb 27 2004
23:17
gray
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IS there a complete list somewhere in the program? Something more than just 30 or 40 words?? Pretty bad when you gotta use “thus sky” to get it to sing the sky. I thought the (pronounced thuh) was a pretty common used word.

Feb 28 2004
16:49
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Hi Gray, there are 2 phoneme lists in the vocaloid editor, one is in the phoneme edit window (comes up when you double click on a note), the other is in the user word dictionary (under “lyrics” drop down menu). There is also a list in the user manual.

But it sounds like these are not exactly what you want. Perhaps you could describe what information you require?

I was thinking about including a phoneme table on this site, but there wasn’t time… it could include the following: phonetic symbol, description, several example words, and comments on how the phoneme can be manipulated in the vocaloid editor….. perhaps even including sound samples. Is this the kind of thing you need?

You shouldn’t have to use the word “thus” to make “the” sound right, you can just change the phonemes for “the” to “D V”? (enable phoneme light, under transport controls. then type the adjusted phonemes under the note)

I notice you are based in Texas, perhaps “the” sounds wrong to you because Leon and Lola are both modelled on English (British) singers, and the English Vocaloid phonetic dictionary is designed to have a neutral english accent (no dialect), the idea being that once the words are in the program you can then change the pronunciation with the phonemes.

Also “the” is a strange word in the sense that is can be pronounced differently depending on the word that comes next…. for example “the air” is normally pronounced “theee air” and like you said, “the sky” sounds like “thuh sky” (both british accent)…. see what I mean? Vocaloid is not clever enough to know which phonetic spelling is required, so you are going to have to tell it what you want. It’s a hassle in some ways but the advantage is that on any word you can have any pronunciation you want!

Hope that helps.

Feb 29 2004
00:16
gray
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Yes, that helped some but the phoneme table you mentioned is what would be more useful. The table in the book and in the help file doesnt seem to have all the syllables needed for speech. While I am from Texas, I try to make the sounds that the singer uses. Stevie Ray Vaughan was also from Texas, hence the need for the to sound Thuh. Thanks

Feb 29 2004
08:54
ilmars
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I’ve noticed that there is an entry in the phenome edit window, phenome table, that describes “Asp” as a breath sound.

After experimeting with it for a while I was able to cause a change in the sound of some vowels by preceding them with it (ie “Asp @”). I also was able to get some consonants to sound alone, at the end of a note, for example “Asp t” will sound “t” alone, which is otherwise illegal if entered any other way.

Does anyone know the intended purpose or correct usage for the phenome “Asp”?

Ilmars

Feb 29 2004
11:33
administrator
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[quote="gray":cvwvsb9a]Yes, that helped some but the phoneme table you mentioned is what would be more useful. The table in the book and in the help file doesnt seem to have all the syllables needed for speech.[/quote:cvwvsb9a]
Do you mean syllables or phonemes?

Ok, if people agree that they want to see a detailed phoneme table on this site I will try and construct one sometime this week. Any other features you would like to see on it? (phoneme symbol, explanation or useful comments(if I can think of any!! hehe), 4-5 example words(and mp3s of them). Anything else?

Feb 29 2004
11:40
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[quote="Ilmars":1xgrbg7f]Does anyone know the intended purpose or correct usage for the phenome “Asp”?[/quote:1xgrbg7f]
As you say the intended purpose of “Asp” is a breath sound. Unfortunately this feature was not implemented in Leon and Lola, hence the Asp sound by itself is silence, it affects the sound of other phonemes because the articulations between Asp and other sounds are also silence.

This feature will hopefully be included in Miriam (if it all goes according to plan!).

Mar 1 2004
19:49
andromeda
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Yes please, could we have a more detailed (accurate) list of the vowel sounds. For instance, where I come from (in the UK) there is no difference between the u sound in “sun” and “strut” (@ and V in Vocaliod). Similarly, poor and pour are the same. (U@ and O@ in Vocaloid). Why not use the standard phonetic symbols? The sound at the end of “maker” (given as @r in Vocaloid), is usually expressed as an upside down e in phonetics, I think. Yes, I know it’s probably impossible to print the character! :?
Chris

Mar 1 2004
23:28
quetzalcoatl
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[quote="andromeda":2npddxw8]there is no difference between the u sound in “sun” and “strut” (@ and V in Vocaliod). Similarly, poor and pour are the same.[/quote:2npddxw8]

I disagree, “strut” has a slightly longer stress on the ‘u’, and “poor” should be pronounced “poo-er”, but in the current vernacular we have made it sound like “pour”.

I think it will become evident to us all that accents can vary, not just from place to place but what is perceived as correct or not, and the way words have been changed in the vernacular. Take “tooth” and “foot”, both have different pronunciations, but the “oo” part is spelt the same. A phonetic list that tells us how to spell one will be wrong for the other. A guide is the best we can hope for. The talent we all have to develop is [i:2npddxw8]hearing[/i:2npddxw8].

Mar 1 2004
23:43
gray
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Yes, the spelling is different, but the phonemes arent based on spelling. they are based on pronunciation. A complete phoneme list would enable one to express any sound. The table in the vocaloid help file and in the handbook has most, but not all the phonemes.

Mar 2 2004
11:17
andromeda
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The fact that we disagree on the pronunciation of u in strut and sun I think proves my point. The words given as examples in the list in the manual and in the software, will mean different things to different people, depending on where they live. If, as administrator says, it is meant to be standard British English, then there are standard phonetic symbols for all the vowels and consonants you will ever need. I agree that the list is not complete in Vocaloid.
Another point. A singer will change vowel sounds for the same word sung at different pitches. A good example is the e (or ee) sound in a word like me or meet. This vowel gets more difficult to sing at higher pitch, and it is common to hear it change to something more like the i sound in hit when the singer gets near the top of her range. Lola sounds a bit strained on some vowel sounds when she gets above the c above middle c!! To compensate this it might be necessary to change the phoneme, or, as I suspect, change the harmonics or resonance value of the voice at that point. I think the coming tutorial on this topic will be very useful.
Chris

Mar 3 2004
00:36
gray
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I dont understand why they would use British English. Everyone knows the English dont speak good english. heh heh JOKING. But they really should have used a Texan with a heavy drawl I think. <img class=” />

Mar 7 2004
02:59
musikman189
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[quote="andromeda":2ub7wndn]
Another point. A singer will change vowel sounds for the same word sung at different pitches. A good example is the e (or ee) sound in a word like me or meet. This vowel gets more difficult to sing at higher pitch, and it is common to hear it change to something more like the i sound in hit when the singer gets near the top of her range. Lola sounds a bit strained on some vowel sounds when she gets above the c above middle c!! To compensate this it might be necessary to change the phoneme, or, as I suspect, change the harmonics or resonance value of the voice at that point. I think the coming tutorial on this topic will be very useful.
Chris[/quote:2ub7wndn]

AH You mean the use of different formants to add in the resonance of certain pitches.

Mar 7 2004
09:47
andromeda
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Yes, that’s part of the problem. There is no documentation with Leon/Lola to help users to change these easily. It becomes mostly trial and error. I accept that the trial and error can be part of the enjoyment of using new software, but with something as complex as this, a bit of info would save a lot of time. The other part is that the vowel sounds are often not what they seem. In one of my other threads on here, you will read that I had to change “good” (g V d) to goad (g @U d) to get Lola to sing it correctly on one of the high notes in her range. I suppose it’s all part of the learning curve.
Chris

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