Forum

Please consider registering
guest

Log In

Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

The forums are currently locked and only available for read only access
It's not the size, it's what you do with it
Mar 22 2004
17:52
robotarchie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
Feb 27 2004
Offline

I was trawling through some of the discussions reagarding user demo’s and I think they’re a great idea – BUT – just got to thinking that demo’s can be dangerous! I’ve bought keyboards and other (hardware) sound modules in the past from shops where I nearly didn’t bother after hearing the built in demo’s (which are designed to impress you in shops!) I think you have to somehow look beyond them to your own needs if at all possible, though it’s very hard to do so sometimes. I’m playing around with Lola and had been thinking about getting Miriam or Leon, but having read a review in this month’s Computer Music magazine I’ve gone a little nervous. I bought Lola “blind”, but I’ve rarely seen such an utter PASTING being delivered before in print on a “soft synth” like the number they did on Leon. Zephryn Cochrane – it’s savage! It’ll be interesting to see whether mention of THAT article appears in the News Section without “judicious” editing <img class=” /> …..

Mar 23 2004
01:39
quetzalcoatl
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 173
Member Since:
Feb 26 2004
Offline

I think people have got the appearance of Vocaloid out of context, and it is because of the up-beat and over-the-top promotional schpeil. When Zero-G told us they were releasing something that sang realistically human-like, they went over the top a bit. It does single words very well, and phrases with more than 3 words not so well. But anyway, my reply to you is about the real context in which Vocaloid has been released. Vocaloid is to the entertainment world, what the first cars and aeroplanes were to people who always travelled by ship. Now, had the makers of the first planes promised London to New York in 2 hours, and then people realised it actually took (then) 24 hours or something, people would have been just as reactionary. The most damage to Vocaloid has been done by the preliminary promotion in my view, not by anyone else. And we can all hear for ourselves that it’s not quite ready to carry a lead vocal.

I don’t know about you, but I’m here because I enjoy being involved at the start of a new technology, and I can foresee really great things coming from the developers. I truly believe that Vocaloid will get better. The way Vocaloid is being judged is only a reaction to the false, or maybe misjudged hype. Vocaloid claims to be something that it cannot yet live up to. That’s all the negativity is about. If I were Zero-G I would re-do the advertising and the hype, and really hammer the fact that at this early stage in its development, it’s capable of convincingly doing this and this and this. And state clearly that it’s not yet suitable for lead vocals. To continue to do otherwise is damaging Vocaloid’s reputation even before it’s had a chance to gain some respect!

I need a drink ……. :?

Mar 23 2004
02:17
roba
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 25
Member Since:
Mar 21 2004
Offline

Q. is exactly right. The product is OK, and it will doubtless get better. But I believe it was WAY over-hyped. Also, there are tradeoffs between precise pronunciation and good sound quality. In fact, they are context-dependent according to the meaning of the song. I wouldn’t expect instant equivalent to live vocal interpretation, except in the hands of a highly-experienced professional who has put thousands of hours into learning the nuances.

Mar 23 2004
09:13
robotarchie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
Feb 27 2004
Offline

I agree that the Vocaloid concept will most probably get better as time goes on, but I think any real breakthrogh may have to come from some smaller highly specialist and enterprising source perhaps as yet unknown to really open up the possibilities. The larger sample library houses have to weigh time and resources against real commercial constraints and I’m thinking of the evolution of instrumental sampling realism. The sample library houses have to churn out a large catalogue of titles as quickly as possible to make their living. A sort of scatter gun effect. I think that vocaloids are currently at the same early stages that so-called “rompler” instruments are at. Vocaloid may probably have to evolve into a huge and relatively expensive specialist library source to become “more real” given our abilities to tune into the subleties of a human voice. Whilst it’s possible to create a drum beat using a sample CD source pounding away on straight four to the floor beats, it requires products like BFD or DFM to produce convincing approximations of a real drumkit having been played by a real drummer. BFD comes on two DVD discs and a CD and weighs in at around nine gigabytes in size. It seems a shame to pound away ham fistedly with it when a wide ranging sublety of expression is available. Other specialist sample libraries examples which have taken the realism route include the colossal orchestral sets like Garritan et al which cost thousands of pounds and come in huge boxed sets of discs spanning hundreds of gigabytes. It’s all the little details like the up and down strokes of a bowed violin sampled at dozens of pitches and stroke types which eat the memory. Perhaps one key to Vocaloid development may lie with the disc streaming technologies that products like GigaStudio etc pioneered in conjunction with the control parameter technologies that Yamaha licences in Vocaloid. Perhaps they ought to consider also moving away at least as an option from the “sheet music Italian” language of the orchestral world (ie diminuendo, pianississimo, etc) and into the modern computer sequencer language. Life is hard enough without having to have a musical dictionary and a linguistics dictionary at hand when you’re trying to block out a simple tune. Just some thoughts…..

Mar 23 2004
09:25
andromeda
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 188
Member Since:
Feb 27 2004
Offline

Garritan Personal Orchestra cost me £189 (less than Lola) not thousands. It did come on two disks and needs a similar spec computer to the one for Vocaloid. The problem with vocal synthesis is that the human voice is far more complex than any instrument, and capable of far more sublety. In addition, our ears are highly sensitive to the sound of the voice. Add to this the whole area of pronunciation and you have a highly complex area. Vocaloid has done wonders to get to where it is, but there is still a long way to go.
Chris

Mar 23 2004
09:45
robotarchie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
Feb 27 2004
Offline

<img class=” /> Sorry – my mistake on naming the Garritan set, which is as you say one of the small and cheap ‘uns. I actually meant the Vienna Symphonic (90 gigabytes and £2127 GBP). You know what I mean, though. LOL

Mar 23 2004
09:50
andromeda
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 188
Member Since:
Feb 27 2004
Offline

Cheaper to hire the orchestra!! LOL
Chris
PS Garritan is on 4 disks, not 2 – my mistake.

Mar 23 2004
11:40
quetzalcoatl
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 173
Member Since:
Feb 26 2004
Offline

The Vienna Symphonic Library Pro Edition is 240 gigabytes and costs $5,990. Or did you mean the 68GB EW/QL Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Edition, weighing in at $3,000. Except for some specialist scientific and medical software which is much more expensive, these orchestral ones have to be the most expensive mainstream software ever. The point about size is well made. All of this will be a mute point soon, when the hard drive makers un-leash hard drives that have 10 or 20 times more capacity than the ones we have now. If anyone knows the details I’d be interested. These new drives are on the way.

Mar 23 2004
14:42
robotarchie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 223
Member Since:
Feb 27 2004
Offline

Well at least a vocaloid will always turn up for a recording session stone cold sober and fresh – which perhaps explains a little of why drummers were first in the firing line of technological advance….. :idea: On the orchestra-in-a-big-box train of thought I remember sitting in on a session in a well known London studio with a subset of a well known large orchestra who stopped playing right in the middle of a line on one take, drummed their horsehair plectrums on their instruments and gazed knowingly at the clock on the wall while the producer then had to get onto the blower pronto and arrange extra finance for “overtime” in order to continue. I just remember thinking it was just a tad rude to stop dead with only a few bars left to completion. Can’t blame them as they were probably on a one-off payment basis, but at least Lola/Leon are on a one-off licence agreement and not paid by the hour (Saints preserve us from that).

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 108

Currently Online:
2 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

gray: 304

robotarchie: 223

andromeda: 188

quetzalcoatl: 173

Giuseppe: 167

Luka Mitutoyo: 147

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1

Members: 7988

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 5

Forums: 27

Topics: 764

Posts: 3555

Newest Members: kprem, yang7764, lisajim, gameace, Sunnydoot, Anildoot

Administrators: administrator: 268