Forum

Please consider registering
guest

Log In

Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

The forums are currently locked and only available for read only access
This topic is locked No permission to create posts
Excessive Portamento
Nov 30 2008
03:31
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

Using Vocaloid Miriam, in Vocaloid I.

Imported a MIDI file. When played back by Vocaloid, between two notes, a jump up a major third, from a quarter note (at end of measure) to a whole note in the next measure, Miriam adds a very prominent long slide between the two notes. It doesn’t sound good at all.

There was certainly no portamento in the MIDI file. I guess that is part of Vocaloid’s attempt at "sounding human", to add slides between notes, but this one is much too prominent. A human who did that would be considered a bad singer, unless it was a special effect in a genre that uses slides, such as jazz and blues. Not the case here.

How do I get rid of it?

I had Miriam’s style set to the default, Normal. I tried changing to legato and slow legato styles, but those only made the sliding worse. (I didn’t try the accent and strong accent styles, as I don’t want it accented, I do want legato.) In the parameters that one can set manually there, I saw nothing that looked like it would affect that sliding.

How can I get rid of that slide? How can I instruct Miriam not to slide from note to note like that?

Thank you.

Nov 30 2008
08:12
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

Hi Maiki

To avoid this "portamento" in a jump of notes , cuts the previous note, adds a short note before the jump.

Also you can add the portamento "legato" in the menu:

Vocaloid Icon Palette

in the two notes (between the jump)

greetings

Nov 30 2008
08:34
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

(Also you can add the portamento "legato" in the menu:)

tries with icon " legato or tenuto " though I prefer cutting the note

Dec 1 2008
04:46
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

[quote="Giuseppe":2yiaaf44]Hi Maiki

To avoid this "portamento" in a jump of notes , cuts the previous note, adds a short note before the jump.

Also you can add the portamento "legato" in the menu:

Vocaloid Icon Palette

in the two notes (between the jump)

greetings[/quote:2yiaaf44]

Do you mean you cut the previous note a little short, so it does stops before the folowing note starts? What do you mean by "adds a short note before the jump"?

How do you add "portamento legato" in the menu?

Dec 1 2008
07:52
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

For the first case; To cut the notes:
Para el primer caso; cortar las notas:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea … D=17474418

I short notes, that does not make such portamento.
Corto las notas para que no haga portamento entre ellas y las ataque.

For the second case; to add "tenuto" with the icon palete:
Para el segundo caso; añadir "tenuto" con la paleta de iconos:

http://giuseppevocaloid.blogspot.com/20 … chive.html

In the majority of my files VSQ and Midi (Vocaloid1) you can see like I cut the end of the notes and I add a note shortly.
En la mayoria de mis archivos VSQ y MIDI (Vocaloid1) puedes ver como corto las notas y añado una mas corta.

Also you can see the videoes of Prima tutorial to do the Spanish sound "r", I always say that the trick is in "cutting the notes".
Tambien puedes ver los videos del tutorial de Prima para hacer el sonido español "r". Yo siempre digo que el truco esta en "cortar las notas".

Video primatuto3
http://giuseppevocaloid.blogspot.com/20 … ial-2.html

Greetings

Dec 6 2008
18:36
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

[quote="Giuseppe":3sv1zshi]For the first case; To cut the notes:
Para el primer caso; cortar las notas:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea … D=17474418

I short notes, that does not make such portamento.
Corto las notas para que no haga portamento entre ellas y las ataque.

For the second case; to add "tenuto" with the icon palete:
Para el segundo caso; añadir "tenuto" con la paleta de iconos:

http://giuseppevocaloid.blogspot.com/20 … chive.html

In the majority of my files VSQ and Midi (Vocaloid1) you can see like I cut the end of the notes and I add a note shortly.
En la mayoria de mis archivos VSQ y MIDI (Vocaloid1) puedes ver como corto las notas y añado una mas corta.

Also you can see the videoes of Prima tutorial to do the Spanish sound "r", I always say that the trick is in "cutting the notes".
Tambien puedes ver los videos del tutorial de Prima para hacer el sonido español "r". Yo siempre digo que el truco esta en "cortar las notas".

Video primatuto3
http://giuseppevocaloid.blogspot.com/20 … ial-2.html

Greetings[/quote:3sv1zshi]

Thank you Giuseppe, for the tutorials. Unfortunately, with my aging eyes, it is hard to see exactly what is being done, on the small vocaloid screen that I see on my computer in your video tutorials. (So far, I have only tried the first one you listed, on Myspace. I will try the others, and see if they are easier to see.)

I’m still not sure I understand the explanation either, in English (my primary language) or in Spanish (which I understand much of, although not perfectly). Perhaps I will ask a couple questions, and see if you can clarify further.

When you say "cut the note", I assume that you mean to shorten the duration of the first of the two notes, so that it does not extend completely to the second note, but leaves some space in between the two notes. Is that correct? (I do want legato, so I would not want to cut it much shorter.) If so, do you do that by dragging the end of the first note towards the left? Or is there a better way to do it a small amount?

When you write "add a note shortly", I have no idea what you mean. Are you saying that you actually add an extra note in between the two notes that had the portamento??? How could that be done, and not affect the melody?

Puedes explicar en español si prefieres, Giuseppe.

Is there someone else reading who understands what he wrote here, and/or could see what is going on in the first video tutorial he cited, and could explain it further, regarding my questions above?

Thank you to all who can help.

(Question to the developers–why do you have Vocaloid do such an extreme portamento between two notes? Has that been fixed in Vocaloid 2? Any way to turn that off in the singer’s style?)

Dec 6 2008
19:24
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

[quote="Giuseppe":ml2y4w47]

Also you can add the portamento "legato" in the menu:

Vocaloid Icon Palette

in the two notes (between the jump)

greetings[/quote:ml2y4w47]

Hi again Giuseppe-

I will explain my confusion with this part.

I understand how to drag a symbol from the icon palette to notes, including legato and tenuto. However, when you write "in the two notes (between the two notes)", I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean to actually drag the icon in between two notes? I tried it and nothing happened. It looks to me like the icons have to be dragged to a specific note.

I tried dragging the tenuto icon to the second note of the jump. Played back, just as much sliding portamento as before. I deleted the icon, and dragged the legato icon there instead. Same thing–sliding portamento still there. I then dragged the legato icon to the first note of the jump as well, so that it was present for both notes. Still did not help-no less portamento than before.

But I don’t know if I was actually trying what you described–since you wrote "between the two notes".

Dec 6 2008
19:46
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

[quote="maiki":1v9osuqt]
Thank you Giuseppe, for the tutorials. Unfortunately, with my aging eyes, it is hard to see exactly what is being done, on the small vocaloid screen that I see on my computer in your video tutorials. (So far, I have only tried the first one you listed, on Myspace. I will try the others, and see if they are easier to see.) [/quote:1v9osuqt]

I’ll expand on this a little further. I think it’s better in some of your tutorials, when you have still images and explanations. If it is difficult to see what is going on in a still image, one can blow the image up larger, zoom in, to see the details. Yet, I cannot see a way to do that with the videos, cannot see well what is going on in the screen, and it goes by fast.

(If the viceos could be downloaded and played back with any video playing app (like VLC, for example), one could stretch the video larger. However, when played back this way embedded into the web page, I see no way to enlarge the video. If there is a way to do that, please let me know.)

Thanks again for all your work.

Dec 6 2008
21:37
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

Hi Maiki

Can you tell me which ones are the notes (example C4-A4) and the word?

I will do a video with these notes and the word to explain better and I’ll put a link for downloading.

Dec 6 2008
21:40
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

Also i’s important the speed of the song.

Thanks

Dec 7 2008
06:13
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

[quote="Giuseppe":2hah3gwc]Hi Maiki

Can you tell me which ones are the notes (example C4-A4) and the word?

I will do a video with these notes and the word to explain better and I’ll put a link for downloading.[/quote:2hah3gwc]

The song is "Jolly Old Saint Nicholas". The lyrics start "Jolly Old Saint Nicholas, lean your ear this way….."

The unwanted portamento is between the last two words above–"this" and "way".

"This" is a quarter note at the end of a measure (4/4 time), the note "F" above middle C.

"Way" is a whole note that takes up the whole following measure, a major third above that, the note "A".

This is with Vocaloid I Miriam, default voice style.

If one could upload files to this forum, I could upload the Vocaloid MIDI file that I have so far, and you could actually make changes to it, and I could see what you did. Is there a way to upload files here? If not, perhaps I’ll upload it somewhere else, and post a link here.

I’m not sure the video is the best way to go, at least the way you did some of your other video tutorials. As I wrote, it was too hard to see (with my eyes at least) what was going on on the vocaloid screen, in the video. Is there a way you can make them larger? Or, as I wrote, instead of images, do still images with explanations.

Thanks again. ¡Muchas gracias!

Dec 7 2008
07:13
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

OK. I uploaded my current Vocaloid MIDI file of that song, to:

[url:o0prijo4]http://www.box.net/shared/ak2vf29j0t[/url:o0prijo4]

Dec 7 2008
11:29
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

Hi Maiki, Thanks so much for the midi file.

Download video: (PLEASE PLAY WITH WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER)

example 1º add tenuto

http://www.box.net/shared/ho2625xgn4

example 2º cut notes

http://www.box.net/shared/ekzexm5qqi

I lament so much not to be able to express correctly in English, mainly with technical matters.

I hope I’ve been able to help you.

Grettings

Dec 8 2008
22:48
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

[quote="Giuseppe":2t4gzakc]Hi Maiki, Thanks so much for the midi file.

Download video: (PLEASE PLAY WITH WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER)

example 1º add tenuto

http://www.box.net/shared/ho2625xgn4

example 2º cut notes

http://www.box.net/shared/ekzexm5qqi

I lament so much not to be able to express correctly in English, mainly with technical matters.

I hope I’ve been able to help you.

Grettings[/quote:2t4gzakc]

Thank you, Giuseppe, for creating and uploading the videos. Yes, this time I could see the video much better, with a larger screen. I now understand what you did. It is difficult to explain that part "about ädding a note". If I had time, I could try to explain it others, but it would take a lot of words and time, which I don’t have now, so I’ll suggest to others wanting to know what he’s talking about, to see the video.

I tried your suggestions, and was able to improve the song. I uploaded the current state of that vocaloid MIDI file to [url:2t4gzakc]http://www.box.net/shared/ak2vf29j0t[/url:2t4gzakc], in case you would like to see the improvement.
(It has the same file name as the first one I uploaded, so if you download to the same place, it will overwrite. If you would like to keep both, for comparison, save to a different place, or change filename on downloading.)

It is far from perfect, but better than before.

For some reason, I was able to eliminate the portamento far better in the second one, to the word "man", than with the first one, to the word "way". (Could the letter "W" in "way" be part of the problem?) With that first one I used both methods–the shortening and adding a note, and the tenuto symbol, and there is still too much portamento there, although better than before.

I noticed that you also moved the word "way" a little earlier, before the beat. Why did you do that? I tried it, and it did not improve the portamento, so I moved it back.

I also noticed that you used the singer style "legato". I tried that, but it seemed to create more portamento, so I switched back to the default "normal".

I also made a few improvements in phonemes, so I think overall this is better than the first version, although it could still be improved a lot. If you have any other ideas for improvement, let me know.

Just in case you have time to look at it, I’ll also include another vocaloid MIDI file that I just started working on:
[url:2t4gzakc]http://www.box.net/shared/1p386ef8qi[/url:2t4gzakc] This is actually a partner song that goes with the first one. (You could have both songs going at the same time, and it should sound good.) (I guess they could be put together in one multi-track vocaloid editor file, but I find it easier to do each separately, then export to .wav, and import into sequencer.)

I have not done much with this second one yet. I imported the MIDI file with lyrics, did the phoneme transformation job, and then corrected some messed up phonemes. If you have any suggestions for improving that one, please let me know.

Regarding the portamento thing, are the developers aware of the bug? One shouldn’t have to be spending a lot of time trying to fix it with workarounds. I guess they added some portamento and pitch bending for expressivity, but they should be aware that it sometimes creates weird results, the way they have it working now. And, where one sets parameters for the voice-resonance, etc., one really should have some control over how much of that sliding might occur.

Is it just as bad in V2 as in V1? Are they aware of the problem, and trying to fix it?

By the way, what app did you use, to take the screen shot videos with sound?

Thanks again!

Dec 8 2008
23:37
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

I’ll look his file and I send you my results.

There are many other failures that arise using every day Vocaloid, not only of portamento, every voice is different and every voice has failures (vocaloid1 and vocaloid2 voices), but all these failures can be solved without problem, the bad thing serious if they could not be solved.

For example. Sweet Ann does a strange noise with the vowel "u" one "u" very inhaled that sometimes sounds well and others not, depends on the consonant and the position in the staff, to correct it only is necessary to cut the vowel and do two.(Since I have said previously the problem serious if it was not possible to correct)

If we analyze Vocaloid we verify that it is a very simple program, a program that generates a sound and the rest of the functions is only to modify this sound, now only depends on the skill on each one to modify this sound.

Dec 9 2008
00:21
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

Forgot me : In the second video, I move the notes because Miriam lengthens the "i" though I have cut, another error in Vocaloid but that can be corrected doing her "i" more short.

To capture images with sound and mouse I use the program ScreenVirtuoso Pro

Dec 9 2008
00:26
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

[quote="Giuseppe":3tt1b6of]

If we analyze Vocaloid we verify that it is a very simple program, a program that generates a sound and the rest of the functions is only to modify this sound, now only depends on the skill on each one to modify this sound.[/quote:3tt1b6of]

Actually, I don’t think it is so simple, to try to recreate a singing human voice, singing words!

In any case, I don’t think that the sliding is something inherent in the vocal samples, for instance, in the recordings they made of Miriam Stockley’s voice. I would think that is something they programmed into the app, to make it sound more human (as humans always slide a little from note to note), in other words as expression, to try to prevent the voice from sounding robotic and sterile.

That is fine, but I don’t think it works quite as they planned, to sometimes have that excessive portamento. So, I do think it is a bug. And, one should be able to control the level of portamento and sliding, just as one can do with vibrato. For instance, for a classical piece one would probably want less sliding than with jazz singing. It should not be built into the program in a way that it cannot be controlled, where it sometimes brings weird results, and that one has to go through unusual workarounds, to try to bring it under control.

Thanks for listening/looking at my songs, and helping. I have actually made some changes to the second song, since I posted it. Perhaps I will post the current version soon, so you can see what I did to it so far. (Maybe this time I will change the name of the file that I upload, so you can download it and not overwrite the version submitted before, in order to compare the two.)

Dec 9 2008
00:30
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

In case anyone is interested, here is a little further developed version of the second song that I posted an hour or two ago, "Santa’s Coming!". This time I added the number 2 to the file name, so it will not overwrite the earlier posted version, in case you wish to compare the two.

[url:vp1ss6p5]http://www.box.net/shared/2r3r05nbpg[/url:vp1ss6p5]

Dec 9 2008
03:31
maiki
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 98
Member Since:
Dec 15 2006
Offline

Well, I dont know if anyone is interested in seeing it, but in case someone is, what follows is "my vocaloid version 3 of "Santa’s Coming:

[url:2zjwgsth]http://www.box.net/shared/iz4p9hjof6[/url:2zjwgsth]

I had to deal with the portamento thing in this song. Just like in the "Jolly Old St. Nicholas", there were two major scoops on upward skips, which I tried to deal with in either version 2 or 3, or most likely a combination of both, continuing to attempt to improve it. Besides that, there was a downward skip with heavy sliding which I tried to correct somewhere in there, but I don’t think I did it very well. That occurs in the second to the last word of the song, "Christmas", between the two syllables Christ and Mas. I tried to improve it, but still think it sounds pretty bad.

Again-I used Miriam, Vocaloid I, her voice set to default normal.

(In case amyone wants to know, the pronounciation I am trying to get (although I don’t think I do it well), is American English, as spoken here in California, without accent.) For instance, in the original import and transformation from MIDI file with lyrics, you could hear the letter "T" in Christmas. I don’t know if the Brits speak it that way, but people don’t do so here, so I took those out.)

Dec 9 2008
08:44
Giuseppe
Madrid
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 167
Member Since:
Nov 20 2005
Offline

My particular version of "Santa’s Coming" created with your file:

http://www.box.net/shared/gi3oecgsls

This topic is locked No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 108

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

gray: 304

robotarchie: 223

andromeda: 188

quetzalcoatl: 173

Giuseppe: 167

Luka Mitutoyo: 147

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1

Members: 7988

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 5

Forums: 27

Topics: 764

Posts: 3555

Newest Members: kprem, yang7764, lisajim, gameace, Sunnydoot, Anildoot

Administrators: administrator: 268