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Using Vocaloid2 Prima as VSTi in Sibelius 5.2.5
Oct 14 2008
02:33
neil
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Hello Everyone,

I am new to this Forum and I have a big problem trying to used Prima in Sibelius as a VSTi. I made a nice sequence up and saved it as a Vocaloid MIDI file. Then import it into Sibelius as a midi file, select Vocaloid2 VSTi as sound source and everything seems ok, but no sound when I hit the playback button and the playback indicator does not move at all and I just get a blank white sheet with nothing on it. Does anyone know how to get the VSTi plugin working with sibelius? I can get the REALtime Vocaloid 2 plug-in working ok.

Thanks,
Neil

Dec 8 2008
04:36
peter5992
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If I may pitch in – I am a Sibelius user as well (5.2.5), have had Vocaloid Prima for nearly a year now, and I am still unable to make it work as a plugin. I tried workaround with another sequencing program (Reaper) but nothing works. The best I can get is in standalone mode which doesn’t do anything for me – really disappointing and frustrating.

If some of the clever folks around this forum would take another look at this, I’d be very appreciative.

Thanks very much,

Peter
http://www.summeroflovemusic.com

Dec 8 2008
05:42
maiki
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I don’t want to keep repeating myself, so please look at other posts re the VSTI plugin, with whatever program.

The fact is–the Vocaloid plugins-VSTI, Rewire, etc., simply don’t work. I wouldn’t waste my time with them.

Just use the Vocaloid Editor standalone (which will import MIDI files well from sequencers, including lyrics).

When you have the vocal part you want, save as .wav file, to import into sequencer to go with other parts.

I just wrote the exact same thing in response to someone else. Perhaps a sticky should be made here, as everyone keeps writing about how the plugins don’t work with some all or another.

The answer to everyone: The Vocaloid plugins suck! Don’t waste your time with them. Hopefully to be improved in the future, but for now-forget about them, and use the app standalone.

Dec 8 2008
09:33
Giuseppe
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With vsti does not work the majority of the most important functions (expression) and the phonetic correction is complicated with vsti.
Anyway, though the plugin vsti working correct, to get the maximum performance is by using the editor Vocaloid.

Dec 8 2008
21:10
maiki
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[quote="Giuseppe":3b2ernmo]With vsti does not work the majority of the most important functions (expression) and the phonetic correction is complicated with vsti.
Anyway, though the plugin vsti working correct, to get the maximum performance is by using the editor Vocaloid.[/quote:3b2ernmo]

Well, I wouldn’t say that getting expression and phonemes via a VSTI plugin is not possible. If anyone looks at the program "Symphonic Choirs" with Wordbuilder, that also sings words, that plugin does work. (Not that it is without problems. That program is very buggy itself, but the plugin does work, which I’ve never had any success with with Vocaloid.(Vocaloid is certainly far better than SC-WB in translating English text to phonemes though! Neither does it perfectly, and requires much tweaking afterwards, but Voc comes a lot closer, requiring less hours of tweaking.)

Back to the plugin–I certainly think it is possible to make a Vocaloid plugin that actually works. Perhaps that will exist by V3, hopefully! (The plugin was supposed to be improved in V2. Is that not the case?)

For now though, I would just recommend that users forget about trying to get the plugin to work, and just use the standalone editor, including importation of MIDI files, and export of .Wav files, to interact with other programs.

Hopefully though, the developers will get the message, that users would like to see the plugin working in the future.

Dec 8 2008
22:01
Giuseppe
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Have you used Symphonic Choirs vsti? The videoes tutoriales are fantastic, but I’m totally sure that to do a "decent" phrase with this program needs many hours and many skill.

Also I´m sure that is easier handle "choirs" (4 voices) than only 1, and I say it for that in the majority of my songs I use choirs of 6 voices, but I them have to work one to one.

I am work with VSTI at the majority of my instruments and with great facility, but the instruments do not have to say words.

With Vocaloid VSTI also it is possible to work and create a good track of voice, but with much more work that with the editor

Dec 8 2008
22:17
maiki
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[quote="Giuseppe":1fyq1quq]Have you used Symphonic Choirs vsti? The videoes tutoriales are fantastic, but I’m totally sure that to do a "decent" phrase with this program needs many hours and many skill.

Also I´m sure that is easier handle "choirs" (4 voices) than only 1, and I say it for that in the majority of my songs I use choirs of 6 voices, but I them have to work one to one.

I am work with VSTI at the majority of my instruments and with great facility, but the instruments do not have to say words.

With Vocaloid VSTI also it is possible to work and create a good track of voice, but with much more work that with the editor[/quote:1fyq1quq]

Yes, I tried a friend’s symphonic choirs VSTI. Yes, it takes many more hours than with Vocaloid to get a decent phrase. Much more difficult. They could learn something from Vocaloid, regarding text to phoneme translation.

Of course they are completely different apps, in that SC has the beautiful choir samples, compared to modeling of a single voice. But there is similarity in getting the voices to sing words, and I think that Vocaloid is easier to use in that respect.

My only point in regards to this thread was, that with that app, the VSTI works just as well as standalone, from what I tried. (And since standalone cannot,. unlike Vocaloid, import MIDI files, nor export .wav files, it is really important to use the VSTI.) Whereas with Vocaloid 1, I found the VSTI in Sonar unusable, yet found it works to just use the standalone editor.

By the way, there should be a new version of Symphonic Choirs soon. East-West has been working on converting all their libraries from the Native Instruments Kontakt to their own sample playback engine, called Play. Hopefully, when the new SC comes out, it will have improvements in its user-friendliness, etc. (Hopefully better ranges as well! The current SC library has a very limited range in each voice, much more limited than what actual choir music is written for. Major problem.)

Only problem too-price! When the original SC came out, it was incredibly expensive, and I would expect probably the same for the new version. (I don’t know why the software makers think they can make more money by charging more for the product. If the price is higher, less people will buy, especially in today’s economy, and they could end up earning less.)

By the way, I recently was reading the forum for that app (don’t recall the URL offhand, it is on Soundsonline forums, I think), and someone wrote about a piece he created with Vocaloid and SC singing together, soloist with choir. He had mp3s posted, which I have not heard yet. (SC has some soloist vocal samples as well, but those can not be used with Wordbuilder, so one can only use the vowels to sing on, not create words.)

Dec 8 2008
23:10
Giuseppe
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I have listened this sample mp3 with PIMA, and must say, that the vocal part of PRIMA was not very right, (the voice is not correctly edited), for what it demonstrates to me that the part coral is easier to handle. (I’ve sung some years in a professional choir and I know about what I speak)

Returning to the topic of this post:

The only one mistake that I find with VOCALOID VSTI is the synchronism with the master program, I hope that this problem of synchronism Yamaha solves it soon.

Dec 9 2008
00:42
maiki
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[quote="Giuseppe":1draqgoz]I have listened this sample mp3 with PIMA, and must say, that the vocal part of PRIMA was not very right, (the voice is not correctly edited), for what it demonstrates to me that the part coral is easier to handle. (I’ve sung some years in a professional choir and I know about what I speak)
.[/quote:1draqgoz]

I haven’t yet heard it, but I think what it demonstrates is that the person who created it is not a Vocaloid Master like you (very few in the world are as good at Vocaloid as you, AFAIK), so of course you are not satisfied with his results, which you could have done much better.

The fact that the choir sounded better to you than the Vocaloid, does not mean that the choir part is easier to handle. The person who created ths might be much more experienced in using SC than he is at Voc. Also, you may not be listening as critically to the choir as you are to Vocaloid, considering how expert you are at the latter, knowing what could have been done better.

Having tried both (not being a master of either, not anywhere close), I can tell you that Symphonic Choirs (current Kontakt version) is much more difficult to use than Vocaloid, not easier.

Dec 10 2008
13:18
neil
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Hi Everyone again,
Here is the reply I received from Vocaloid Tech Support: ( Along with my email that I sent to them)

Hello Neil

Thank you for your email.

Yamaha in Japan have replied as follows:

> > Sibelius 5.2.5
We confirmed the MIDI reading operation of Sibelius5. Sibelius seems
not to be able to read the NRPN message.
VOCALOID VSTi doesn’t operate in such a situation because VOCALOID VSTi
uses NRPN messages in VOCALOID MIDI.

> > Band-in-a-box
> > PowerTracks Pro Audio 12
We cannot investigate this problem because we do not have Band in a Box
and PowerTracks Pro Audio.

If you have any further questions please get back in touch.

Regards

Vocaloid Support

neil wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
> I am trying to use the VSTi plug-in, not the Real time plug-in, in Sibelius 5.2.5. When I try to import the saved ( exported ) vocaloid midi file of the Vocaloid sequence, all I get is a blank sheet, nothing on it, and when I try to play it, no sound and the sequence play indicator does not move either. The Real time plug-in works ok in Sibelius. But I want to use the sequence I created in the Vocaloid Editor in Sibelius. Is there something wrong with the VSTi plug-in? I also tried it in Band-in-a-box and PG music PowerTracks Pro Audio 12 and both of them state that the VSTi plug-in is NOT a standard VST!!! Any help you could give me would be most helpful.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Neil
>
>Bottom line is Vocaloid 2 VSTi WILL NOT work with Sibelius 5.2.5!!! But I have found a good way to use it. I will tell how in my next post.[/b]

Dec 10 2008
18:08
Giuseppe
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The plu-gin works, I demonstrate it in this video:

http://giuseppevocaloid.blogspot.com/20 … chive.html

But I also demonstrate that it is an error of synchronism. Vocaloid Vsti has to render the words and to begin together the music. If we press the button "aA" to render the words, the plu-gin does not do it, only you do when the music is working, so it is a problem of synchronism.

Dec 21 2008
01:17
peter5992
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Thanks for the feedback everyone – that is really interesting. I think I’ll try to use Vocaloid standalone. I do have the symphonic choirs by Eastwest, by the way, and I did manage to get them up and running with Sibelius (using Reaper as sequencing program as well), to wit:

http://www.summeroflovemusic.c…..istmas.mp3

This took me a long time to figure out – and with further tweaking of wordbuilder I could get better results (but I ran out of time sending out my Christmas cards this year) but I am patient guy, and eventually I’ll get prima to sing for me as well.

Oh, by the way, Merry Christmas everyone.

Dec 28 2008
23:34
maiki
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[quote="peter5992":2cmkxhg8]Thanks for the feedback everyone – that is really interesting. I think I’ll try to use Vocaloid standalone. I do have the symphonic choirs by Eastwest, by the way, and I did manage to get them up and running with Sibelius (using Reaper as sequencing program as well), to wit:

http://www.summeroflovemusic.c…..istmas.mp3

This took me a long time to figure out – and with further tweaking of wordbuilder I could get better results (but I ran out of time sending out my Christmas cards this year) but I am patient guy, and eventually I’ll get prima to sing for me as well.

Oh, by the way, Merry Christmas everyone.[/quote:2cmkxhg8]

Yes, that is one area in that Symphonic Choirs/Wordbuilder is ahead of Vocaloid–the plugin actually works! Not that it doesn’t have some problems, but by and large it works.

Despite a few writing that the Vocaloid plugin works, it is really more trouble than it is worth, and I don’t think you will find many people really using Vocaloid that way. For instance, if you consider our Vocaloidmeister Giuseppe. He says that the Vocaloid plugin works. Yet, is that how he usually uses Vocaloid? I think he has written that he usually uses Vocaloid standalone, as do I, and I think most others.

The importation of MIDI files and exportation of .wav files makes it quite possible to use Vocaloid standalone with other music apps.

Hopefully, in the future the plugin will be improved.

By the way, since you use both SC-WB as well as Vocaloid, and I have tried SC-WB as well, I would like your opinion on comparisons. Well, no sense at all in comparing final results. A giant choral sample library like SC cannot be compared at all to a program that tries to synthesize a solo singing voice, such as Vocaloid. One can also use SC without WB at all, with no words, just singing vowels, with beautiful results.

However, the one area that I think can be compared in, is the area of entering text, and how that translates into sung phonemes, since both programs do that. In that area, although both apps are in their infancy, IMO, and have much room to improve, I think that Vocaloid is definitely ahead of SC/WB, in ease of entering language, and having it translated into sung words.

For one thing, Vocaloid, in importing a MIDI file, will import lyrics in the file as well. When you use WB plugin on a MIDI track in your sequencer, no way can it see the lyrics in that track. Saves re-typing.

Furthermore, you type English words into Vocaloid, you get a result that to some extent actually resembles sung English words. Far from perfect, they need tweaking and improving, but not too bad.

Whereas, if you enter English words into WB (in the English mode), the results will probably sound nothing like those words, and you would have to spend many more hours fixing it. In fact, the documentation recommends that you do not use English mode, but instead learn their complicated phonetic language called Votox (funny, how they made it rhyme with a trade name for botulinism toxin used cosmetically <img class=” /> ), and type the words directly into WB in Votox, not in English.

When I tried it, all in all, much more difficult to get decently pronounced English words form WB-SC than from Vocaloid, involving many more hours of tweaking, language entry, etc. Of course, some people get great results with WB-SC, but they have probably spent many more hours learning how to do it, etc.

Curious about your opinion–since you use both apps. Do you agree with what I wrote above, about Vocaloid being easier for text entry?

Dec 29 2008
00:52
Giuseppe
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I have worked with Symphonic Choirs and WordBuilder, you can listen to an example of my work together with Prima in this link:
http://vocaloid-user.net/modules.php?na … opic&t=468

The musical composition is of Stéphane (bibouba).

Sincerely I believe that WordBuilder is a bad tool of work. I am not late very much in doing 4 phrases in Latin and the result is not bad. But WordBuilder has innumerable faults and problems. I have managed to make work Symphonic Choirs and WordBuilder with Fl Studio 6,
but to make a phrase have to do many different things and x4 voices, for example, to export the result it is not possible to do correctly with Fl Studio,(the voices confuse the words) and it is necessary to make a recording of the voice while executing, later it is necessary to fit four recordings in order that they sound together, and better let’s not speak about the pronunciation and of the cost of the program.

All the users who have spoken evil of the Vocaloid editor should use WordBuilder to do comparisons, I can do a complete song (3 minutes) with Vocaloid in 1 day but with WordBuilder it will be late 1 month.

I do not question the magnificent quality of Symphonic Choirs DB, and it costs money, but WordBuilder does not accompany adequately to Symphonic Choirs.

Today the way of working more rapid and effective it is with Vocaloid, the phonetics in WordBuilder is so simple as in Vocaloid and Symphonic Choirs can be a tool of very important support for Vocaloid but it is necessary to have patience to use it correctly.

Vocaloid can do big works as plugin vsti, but it is necessary to have a lot of time and work to obtain the same result that with the Vocaloid editor.

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